How Queer Heroes Are Changing DC Comics

Episode · 1 year ago

How Queer Heroes Are Changing DC Comics


In 1954, Dr. Frederick Wertham's book, Seduction of the Innocent, claimed the comics were depraved and were harmful to children. This led to the creation of the Comics Code Authority, a voluntary yet omnipresent label ensuring comics bearing its sigil would follow many guidelines, one, in particular, being that “Illicit sex relations are neither to be hinted at nor portrayed. Rape scenes, as well as sexual abnormalities, are unacceptable.” This lead to the utilization of queer coding, especially with early work, which was often unflattering. Villains were often the focus of queer coding, which lead directly to villainizing gay people and ideas. Another aspect of queer coding is queerbaiting, which “baits” a queer audience with themes and character interactions that appeal while never delivering on these themes. But Tim Sheridan and Meghan Fitzmartin are two people who are changing the world of comics in 2021.

Your host is Levi Chambers, co-founder of Gayety. Follow the show and keep up with the conversation @Pride. Want more great shows from Straw Hut Media? Check out or website at Your producers are Levi Chambers, Maggie Boles, Ryan Tillotson and Edited by Silvana Alcala Have an interesting LGBTQ+ story to share? We might feature U! Email us at *This podcast is not affiliated with Pride Media.

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Straw media. I think that what I tried to do was write a story from that experience that I had being a closeted gay kid growing up, you know, in Rhode Island and in Florida as well, at a time when it wasn't a good thing to be a gay kid in those places, and and to try to reach out to those kids that you're talking about and have them watch that and think the story of Clark Kent Sort of coming out as an alien, which is what that story is, is something that I understand. It's something that some of the things that he's going through, some of the thoughts that he's having us the same thoughts that I have, and I think that's true, like whether you if your story is as a you know, a kid who's WHO's figure out their identity, or whether it's an immigrant, you know, story, or which a lot of people see Superman as immigration allegory, or whether it's somebody who's living, you know, on the social spectrum. I think that it's sort of a reverse version maybe, of coding where were what I've tried to do is take my experience as a queer, formerly queer kid who used to be, you know, like Clark Kent and and make that something that it's accessible to to many, many people who can see their own story and how it connects to my story, and that then we're not all as different as we think we are, that our differences really are to skin deep, that we have so much deep, deep stuff that is, that is that connects us and that we share. It's so much more of that than the stuff that we think makes us different. In one thousand nine hundred and fifty four, Doctor Frederick Wortham's book seduction of the innocent claimed that comics were depray and harmful to children. This led to the creation of the Comics Code Authority, a voluntary yet omnipresent label ensuring comics bearing it sigil would follow many guidelines, one in particular being that illicit sex relations are neither to be hinted at nor portrayed. Rape Scenes, as well as sexual abnormalities, are unacceptable. This led to the utilization of queer coding, especially with early work, which was often unflattering. Villains were often the focus of queer coading, which led directly to villainizing gay people and ideas. Another aspect of queer coating is queer baiting. which bates a queer audience with themes and character interactions that appeal, while never delivering on these themes. But Tim Sheridan and Megan Fitz Martin are two people who are changing the world of comics in two thousand and twenty one. It was never a space of like man who were trying to like be inclusive, that this character that has no lines. It was more of just like this is who this person is, and that's the most important. Today we chat with Tim and Megan to comic book writers who broke boundaries when they introduced new queer characters into their comics, like stitch, a gender queer hero from Teen Titans Academy, and Tim Drake's Robin from Batman Urban Legends, and it was just this elation, like it was just this moment of pure elation of like cool, if this is really cool. Tim and Megan will share how these beloved queer characters came to be in the comic world, why this authentic representation matters today and what comics might look like in the future. I'm lean by chambers and this is pride. Tim... a member of the LGBTQ plus community and has worked for DC across comics and animation with series like Shazam and Teen Titans Academy. I grew up in a very small town in the woods in Rhode Island and did not so far away from people that it was not suburbia your there. You didn't go out and play with your other friends every day. So my life was a about television and comics and action figures and those were, in many ways, my friends. So I grew up on all of those things and then eventually I ended up working in the business. He's currently writing team Titans Academy, which has introduced stitch, a new gender career character to DC. Cannon. Titans Academy came to me from Mike Cotton, my editor at DC, who said, you know, we've got this idea, this concept for you know, using the the teen titans title, you know, to to do something different and to introduce the concept of an academy. What would you do with that? And one of the first things I said to Mike is, you know, if we're going to do that and if the classic titans characters like nightwing and starfire and Cyborg and Raven are going to be there as faculty, then it's important I think, to sell the concept that we bring in a whole new class of young kids who were there to learn from these heroes who have this long, rich story history and and I thought, I'm new to comics and I thought, well, I'm going to be laughed off this call, and but instead Mike said absolutely, that's exactly what what we should do. And and what are the characters? And one of the first characters I pitched DC was stitch. Stitch is a magical rag doll. So they're not necessarily human, which Tim saw as an opportunity to explore something more about the character. And so I felt like I had an opportunity to explore the concept of gender from sort of an outside perspective. That came, I had to tell you, with huge trepidation on my part, because one of the things I really wanted to steer clear of is the monster trope and the idea that, well, this is not a human character, so we're going to make this a queer character and explore queer themes. But you know, I think sometimes, maybe my I'm cynical, but sometimes I think that was that's been done. You know, it's like, oh, but it's okay because they're not a p they're not a person, they're not a human. So so we can we can explore these these these themes. So it was a it was a tricky tightrope for me in the beginning and I wanted to make sure we got it right. I think I actually kind of screwed some stuff up in the beginning. The first reviews of the character stitch couldn't quite pinpoint what identity they were. There were reports that they were bisexual or Pan Sexual. I felt like it made sense for stitch to to for them to refer to themselves as gender nonconforming and and and also you know that it's it's okay for stitch to identify however stitch feels like they identify. One of the things that I was really clear about early on were the pronouns for stitch, and that was something that I thought this is going to be a tough one because there's so many people that work on the book. I've got to make sure that when I'm using these pronouns, that everyone understands how they work and how we're referring to stitch and how stitches referring to themselves. And and one of the great joys was. So, you know, from a very early moment in the..., in the work on the book, you know, everybody was was on board and using stitches pronouns the way that stitch would want them used. And but you know, we like we do in real life. I mean we we kind of made some mistakes early on and I felt like I needed to sort of shepherd everyone when a mistake was made, when someone used the wrong Pronoun I said, you know, let's let's just be clear that you know, stitch identifies as they them and you know. But it was sort of a little bit of a learning curve and everyone picked it up fast and caught on board. That was really heartwre me. So it was a real opportunity for me. It had some pitfalls, but I wanted to make sure that we were honest and true to a character who sort of looks at at at relationships and and gender and all of the trappings of what it is to be a human being with great wonder and awe and, you know, a little bit of humor as well. Tim was prepared for there to be a little pushback from his DC team about the character, but he was pleasantly surprised I really didn't know what to expect. So I was prepared, I should say, for it to be a little bit more challenging to communicate the concept, you know, of who stitch is. I think one of the things that is just a general sort of trap in in our creative process on Titans Academy, you know, is, or could be at least, the fact that there is a kind of a language barrier between Rapha, send of all, and myself. Rafa is, is Spanish and you know, my his English is much better than my Spanish. But, you know, I wanted to make sure that that Rafa understood, you know, where stitch was coming from and that I was communicating it correctly to him. So that was sort of the things I was expecting were that we would not be able to communicate it. I didn't expect that anyone would dishonor who stitch was or anything like that. There are so many things that connect us as members of the community, that we all have in common and there's a reason why we all stand together within the same community, and I I wanted to make sure that I honored those experiences. That I'm honoring, I should say, those speriences, as best I can and making sure that everyone else on the team feels that they have an opportunity to explore that in honor of that as well, which I mean feels like it feels like such like a no brainer, but at the same time also very refreshing, because it's something that is new somewhat to tell many sorts of media and entertainment, specifically in this kind of superhero world. Some have drawn, conclude, they've drawne connections to Ragman, Roy Reagan and kind of his supernatural patchwork look and the costume design, a character that appeared first in the S, I think. And a question for you I had was, do you find more value in creating new characters who can be part of the Lgbtqi a community as opposed to repurposing a fan favorite like, you know, a team Titan, to become part of the LGBTQ community? Do you feel like that gives you more freedom? Well, let me say it this way. It I think it. Creating new characters always gives you an opportunity to have more freedom with everything about those characters, not just sort of how they identify and what community they're part of, but so in general, creating original characters just makes the road a little bit easier all over the place. Having said that, I do think it is important and it's an important part of being authentic in our representation of our community to to to see...

...established, wellknown characters come out and and have you know and and you know either that they either that they have discovered something about themselves or that they reveal something about themselves that they've hidden. I think that that's true to life. I think that that happens in the real world and so I think if we avoided that we would be doing a disservice to the many fans that are out there who identify that way and feel that way, Oh and also to those who who don't necessarily identify or feel that way. We've all heard of Batman and Robin, right Bruce Wayne and his trustee side kick, who keep the streets of Gotham safe. But in a current comic Batman Urban Legends, it was revealed that Robin would be exploring his sexuality introduced in some of our parts. The story shows him rescuing an old friend of his, Bernard, from a cult, one that's been kidnapping teenagers all over Gotham city. At the end of the story, Bernard asked him on a date and offer, to which Tim says yes, which is a huge deal. And brings us to Megan Fitz Martin. I grew up in Florida in a small town called celebration Florida, which is the town that Disney belt, so it was a very sort of formative experience. My joke is always that I was the emo kid and the happy his place on earth. Megan is a DC writer and has worked on series like Batman, urban legends and Future State Robin Eternal. But I got into comics because my dad. My Dad loves comics and I have a really good relationship with my father and he was very strict on movies at my house and what we could watch and PG thirteen movies were generally even if I was thirteen, I really wasn't allowed to see them, except superhero movies. Those were always like the movies that had sort of card watch. My Dad would take me to see them, it didn't really matter and there was just this this bonding experience that I had with him. And then as I got older and I started to like parts through my own emotions and things, I realized the comic books were Super Helpful and beneficial in terms of understanding my own feelings about things like, when you're a kid, the world does feel like it's ending and it is difficult to sort of find that but but I would see these superheroes who were mimicking the same thing that I was feeling, but it was on like the grand scale of the world ending. And how did you sort of process those emotions in those spaces or not process as emotions and what it looks like when you don't process emotions, and so comic looks really helped me understand my own emotions and feelings and how to relate to sort of big, big scary things in the world. Megan started out at Warner Bros in the TV estimating department, handling the company's budgets. Then she moved to being an assistant and on a popular show you might be familiar with, supernatural. The last year I became a staff writer and during that time I met a lot of Warner Brothers, folks to being Jim Craig and Jeremy Adams, who, Jeremy Adams, is currently writing flash and they got me into DC animation stuff. So I did DC superhero girls and Jeremy and I co wrote a movie that came out earlier this year called Justice Society. World War Two and during that time, end of two thousand and nineteen, there was there was sort of a not a mandate, but we had heard that like they were looking for some writers. If anybody in DC animation was interested in writting comics, they would put our name for it. And Jeremy and I both like sort of looked at each other because we both have also very much loved comics, and we were like yes, yes, that's a dream come true. Are you kidding me? So got pulled over into a DC and it's been amazing. I've absolutely adored it. The first project she was asked... work on it DC was Tim Drake, a crime fighter who works with Batman. Drake is the third character to take on the role of Robin in the franchise. When I was brought on to DC, one of the characters they had asked me, they're specifically asking me, like, okay, we're doing this this event called future state. We would love for you too. Would you be instoted in doing Tim Drake? And I was like yes, of course, like literally, I will do whatever you ask me, because I really wanted, I really want to write a comic and and I had been practiced. I like practicing. I've been taking classes and things like that, writing my own and I was like absolutely, I would love nothing more. And it's the bat family, like I have loved the bat family for so many years, and so it was like this honor. And so I went in, I did two issues for robin internal, future state, Robin Eternal, and it's really great. It was really fun. It was I learned so much and my editor was amazing and that team was just fantastic. And so the assistant editor who became the at my editor for Batminter urban legends, came in was like hey, really liked working with you, and I loved working with him, and so it was a sort of situation of we would love to what if we told more stories? What if you told more Tim Drake Stories? Because we're already on this role. And so he's like just take some time, like think about what sort of Tim Drake story you'd want to tell, and I was like, okay, great, like I would love nothing more. I'd spend some time. I spend some time with Tim Drake already sort of in that like metaphysical spaces a writer, of investigating him and and who he is and his wants and needs and things. The idea making came up with had to do with exploring Tim Drake's identity. It is the story of Tim sort of coming to terms with his own self rather than like, you know, trying to fabricate something. This felt very personal and rounded and internal and answered a bunch of questions that, like, I had about the character for years. And so I sent it to my editor and I was like, Hey, I need to know if we can do this, because that this is what I'm moving forward with and this is what I'm thinking about, and and he was like okay. He's like you're not the first person that has brought this up. So that that was beneficial and my in my case, I've made a full case to him. I think I brought in a bunch of different panels. While pitching the character to her directors, making stressed that her goal was to tell an authentic story. She wanted the world to know more about who tim drake really is. We went through and got the approvals and as like okay, cool, like I got the email. I remember, and I still I have saved because it's one of my favorite emails, where it was like, because I also did it through emails, so that I would have it like, okay, I need to know if I can do this, I need to like make sure, and I remember getting the email and just sort of sitting on my floor for a solid two minute going, okay, we're going to do this. I always dreamed that I would see Tim Drake, you know, be someone who's even more like me and and you know, by by a straight by strange coincidence, you know things. You know that that's being explored right now in the books at the time that I'm at DC writing stuff as well. I don't have any need to do with it, but but I I thrilled that it's that it's happening, that they're looking at it, that it's a journey that that I thought about for a long time, that he's that he's going through. It's less about validation and more about, like, this is who the character is realizing over the course of time, in the same way that like people who are queer kind of sort of come to that realization. It's not always it is not always like this. Immediately. I yes, I know, I've known this whole time and is a thing of like yeah, now this is this is who I am. Like I realize it, a lot of things start clicking to place and making sense, and I think that,... it's less of a validation of more of a realization, if that makes sense, of a like Oh, okay, cool, like you weren't wrong for seeing it before. It maybe wasn't necessarily the the intent before, because it wasn't necessarily what who robin knew himself to be, but now the pieces can sort of fall into place in a way that they weren't able to before. When we come back Queer baiting and the future of DC comics. Welcome back. Today we're chatting with Megan Fitz Martin and Tim Sheridan to comic book writers who broke boundaries when they wrote lgbtq plus characters into the DC comic universe. Tims stitch and Megan's Robin have both brought authentic representation to the DC universe. But that isn't to say that Queer bating or queer coding aren't common practices see in media today. Queer bating is when a marketing team hints that a character is a member of the LGBTQ plus community, but then doesn't offer that character genuine scene surrounding their identity. You know, you never really want a character to sort of just be somebody in the background that like waves for two seconds, like that's that's we've all been that person in someone else's life and that sucks and I don't like it was nice to be able to like say no, no, that's not that is it, that is that's not what we want to do here. We want to to bring weight and merit to this character, to this person, rather than just be like Ah, yes, this is the this is a symbol and a nonnentity. This is it's important because queer people are important. Like they queer people exist. I don't like, in a way that that matters. Tim Works a little differently with his characters. They aren't all established DC icons like Robin, which gives him more creative freedom, but it also means he has less time to establish full stories for each of the characters. But when it comes down to it in the end, I think our responsibility has to be to the story and the characters and I just find that discovering who these characters are throughout through their real life interactions, real life, but they're real interactions in the book with each other. Finding out who they are that way and discovering more about them as the days go on, as the months go on, is a more organic and exciting and ultimately satisfying way of introducing characters. If I could give you a book that started with a rundown, a bio on every character, who they are, what they're into, you know where they identify and and then we just start the story right, that's a way to do it. I guess it's not interesting to me. Won't. It's one of the reasons why when you read Titans Academy or or any of you know or Shazam or any of the comics that I'm writing, you don't see omniscient narrator voice. You don't see a lot of in inner monolog because what I'm trying to do, what we're trying to do, is to let these characters develop for fans through the real life type of interaction that you'd have. Megan said the biggest obstacle was working with such an established and beloved character. With any sort of Ip, you are always working off of what has been already in existence, and that's sort of well, all I wanted to do with this character is to pull pieces from from his past that explained himself like that is, and then allow those pieces to speak for themselves. Like ultimately, my goal at...

...the end of this was for Tim Drake to speak his own piece and like make his own realizations and get to sort of his own understanding about things and with a little bit of help, like I'm detective Williams, I think was was a character that I wanted there to sort of, you know, hold his hand a little bit and be like, this is okay. If you need to like get to this realization on your own, on your own terms it, on your own time, this is great, but like allow yourself and give yourself that space. And so, you know, allowing allowing this, the history of the Robin Character, to Perc late and and I did a lot of like, like I said, I did a lot of research and I did a lot of study and I did a lot of like digging into this character because I I wanted it to be Tim story like that was the most important thing for me, is for Tim Story to be heard, for Tim's voice to be heard, and beyond that, like the other voices, don't matter at the end of the day, like people are going to think whatever they want to think. I don't have any control over that. All I can do is tell the best story that I can and create a space for for Tim to exist is as a fully realized character. If that doesn't work for some people like cool that. I wish them no ill, but this is this is this is him, this is the the hope was that this was what Tim was saying and giving Tim the space to say it. Thus far, Tim's longest running relationship was with Stephanie Brown, or bat girl, when she was first introduced twenty five years ago. Tim's only other intimate relationship was with his teammates super boy from Teen Titans and young justice. A lot of rumors swirled about the full extent of that relationship, but nothing was ever made cannon Megan said there were a few moments she pulled during her research which led her to the conclusion about Tim Drake Sexuality. Like as I was sitting with Tim, within those moments, like I remember, I remember reading, like when Tim went to the pride prey, that was happening and like that. That was a moment for me where I was like Oh, this is really interesting, in a very specific moment, for like the writer to make and their artist to drop like as Tim as a character going through this and supporting his friend. There was something about that that's like really spoke to me of like there's there is, I don't know, like there's something and interesting to this this aspect of the story. There's also something interesting. I mean there's so many, I feel like so many small moments that it's really difficult for me to like be like Oh, yes, this one Aha moment because, and I think like this is true for a lot of people, that it is all of these small moments that you, in retrospect, look back and go yes, no, okay, this explains a lot about myself. And so for me it was just a lot of these smaller moments tim where I was like Oh, cool, yes, this is this explains a lot, like all artists who put their work out into the world for others to enjoy, Megan felt anxious and worried about how people would respond to the new issues with Tim Drake. My editor, my nitor, sent us an email and he was like well, we knew that this was going to like affect comic world and so like sort of that's that sense of I mean, as long as my editors had passed off and I was like this is fine, like whatever, whatever, but I knew comic people were going to have some opinions. They're never known for opinions at all, but you know, I've I figured they might have a couple, and so there was like that sort of fear because I wanted to do justice to the character. But then they're also was like the fear. As it got bigger and like as more people took notice, I was like, Oh, okay, this is this is cool and wonderful and amazing and good. But also I'm terrified of attention all the time. So that was that's its own sort of fear.

But yeah, but more like most specifically, it was just wanting to make sure that I told Tim Drake story with justice and with with care and with honor, like, because that, at the end of the day, all the rest of it doesn't matter. That's what I wanted more than anything else, was to show him love and and give him the space for that and and hopefully there by giving others the space to be themselves as well. I mean, I think that I absolutely not that anybody cares what I think, but I absolutely demand that queer characters are integrated into DC continuity just as they are integrated into, you know, everyday life and society. Stitch and Tim Drake are not the only characters in the DC universe who are members of the lgbtq plus community. Characters like Alan Scott's green lantern, Harley Quinn, Poison Ivy, new Aquaman, Jackson hide and even the amazing wonder woman have all been written as queer at some point in their franchises. In Television, specifically, the CW is Batwoman, formerly played by Ruby rose, made headlines when she came out as a lesbian on the show. Other franchises like Marvel and star wars are also incorporating queer story lines into their storytelling. I've done a lot of writing work within like these very wonderful queer spaces that like. I'm like no, it. It is less about having a responsibility and more just like this is life, this is this is what the human tapestry looks like. Why wouldn't I? Why wouldn't I write these stories for like of real human people that exists and so and and in the same sense of Steff like, I am constantly wanting to make sure that I am challenging my own understanding of specifically gender and Masculinity and femininity within those binaries that that have been created. And it's it is very easy to do and superhero stories and like it's been done. What's what's the other side of that coin is there's some really cool stuff that we can do that like hasn't been done, because there's some really there's there's there's stuff to challenge and I think that that's a really fun space to existence. So I am I am extremely lucky that I have not felt bogged down or afraid because I've just been in spaces that have been really supportive and nurturing in that so I don't if people get mad at me. Once again, that is their own sort of situation and I'm I'm good, I'm on a boat. I'm fine. Both Tim and Megan confirm that these lgbtq plus stories are just the beginning. There is a story that that I that is currently on the books. I can't talk about it right now, but it's Um there is a story that involves a character's journey with their identity and it's, you know, there's there's there's mystery surrounding it right now. This is a character that that is that is in DC continuity now and and in the beginning the the idea was to sort of explore that story earlier in in you know, after meeting that character. It was something that we couldn't do because of reasons that didn't have anything to do with that character's story. They were sort of there were very legitimate reasons of regarding like what we that that the particular title that we would use when we'd have that book under is being it has a different story in a different creative team right now. So I you know, it wasn't it wasn't something I could do right away. So I said great, no problem, but we're going to do it.

We'll just do it a little bit later. Will kind of build up to well, now that has sort of opened up and the plan is to to to have that story play out next year and it is a story very much about an awakening and and an understanding of one's identity. But it is something that I feel so strongly has to be done in a way that is authentic to the experience that this character is going to be having, where that story is going to begin is in a very Scifi otherworldly space kind of story. But that afforded me an opportunity to introduce new information to this character that is going to help them understand their identity. I know that it is, that it is on the hearts and minds of everybody there that like this is once again we are telling human story. Is Not just like caricature stories. We are telling human stories that exist because where people exist. So yeah, there is, there is just this genuineness that I have seen and experienced and I'm so thrilled about because it's I've never questioned the last couple of years with the people that I've worked with. It is it is almost a foregone conclusion of like oh no, of course, like we're going to do obviously making sure that we do the best version, like the best job that we can. A friend of mine, under a Sha, did this amazing book for Pride Month that was like DC pride and like she's she's a brilliant as as an editor and editor and the the there are minds like hers that are pushing for it and really supportive in these spaces and so I think it's I think it's really cool. There's some really cool stuff happening and in Superhero Land and I'm grateful for it. Tim Drake Sexuality storyline began an issue six and it'll pick back up in number ten. There's going to be some more tim story happening. But this is, you know, once again, this is a journey. This is a journey for Tim as it is a journey for so many people. So we this isn't just a one and done thing. This isn't just, you know, Tam going all right, I have, I have discovered my this is it. This is who I am like. That's not that. That isn't a real human story. Nor will it be tims. So I there is whatever the journey he goes on with, if it's me, hopefully, or others. But we this is this is a journey. So Tim's team Titan Academy, was first published in March of two thousand and twenty one. It follows old superheroes like nightwing, starfire and Cyborg as they try to train the next generation of supers, teen Tygans Academy Number One. I think you should read that because while it may not feel explicitly queer and the characters may not feel explicitly queer. Come along for the ride and and you know there's there are some some, if you're willing to to meet these characters and journey with them and learn information about who they are through their everyday interactions, you know at the end of that story they're there. Are you know there's a pot of gold. Without saying too much, there's a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. MMM, see, I didn't go for the leg like the actual I was like trying to be poetic about it, and you just threw it out. Just slap it in their face, just give it to him right in there, somewhere there is a young...

...queer person, a living in the middle of nowhere, can't watch any friends houses, that is loving television and comic books just like you are when you were a kid. If there was something that you hoped that those young readers would either discover or learn or take from the work you're doing at DC and the and the work that DC is publishing, what would that be? It's funny because I feel like kids today probably are in a they're just coming up in a different world than I did, and I think my answer is going to be something that probably is more about what I would tell eleven twelve year old ten and and there are eleven twelve year old tims out there now, but I think it would be very simply that you know you're not alone. That's it. That's all I needed. That's what I wanted to hear when I was figuring out who I you know what kind of person I was and what kind of person I was going to be and wanted to be. We're you know, partially some of that had to do with my my sexual orientation, but also, you know, what kind of man I was going to be. A boy kind of career is going to have all of those things. You know, I was a nerdy kid who read comics, who was figuring out do I think I like boys, and if somebody had been able to say to me, yeah, just like you know a whole lot of other people, you know you're not alone. That's all I would want. Pride is a production of Straw hut media. If you like the show, leave us a rating and a review on Apple, podcast, spotify or whever you listen to podcast. Then follow us on Instagram, facebook and twitter. Apt Pride and tune in weekly for new episodes. Be Sure to share this episode with your friends and subscribe for more stories from Amazing Queer people. If you'd like to connect with me, you can follow me everywhere. At Lea by chambers. Pride is produced by me, lea by chambers, Maggie Bulls, Ryan Tillotson, Caitlyn mcdaniel and Brandon Marlow, edited by Silvana. I'll Calla, and Daniel for era. Sound mixing by Silvana. I'll calla. Maybe Tim Drake is going to have a new hobby where he is like, you know what. I'm done being Robin and now I do boats. This is Lessa so I have joked with my partner numerous times of like the next thing, the next thing I write about robin is that he has resented, he's resened about, because I'm putting this to Youse Somehow.

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