Coming Out Army Strong with Andrés Hernandez
PRIDE
PRIDE

Episode · 3 years ago

Coming Out Army Strong with Andrés Hernandez

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Andres Hernandez spent 12 years in the US military as a combat engineer. His job was to find IEDs and disarm them, keeping soldiers and civilians safe. Six years after he enlisted, Barack Obama repealed Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell. Five years after that he came out to his company. Be sure to follow Andres on IG. Your host is Levi Chambers, co-founder of Gayety. Follow the show and keep up with the conversation @Pride. Want more great shows from Straw Hut Media? Check out or website at strawhutmedia.com. Your producers are Levi Chambers, Maggie Boles, Ryan Tillotson and Edited by Sebastian Alcala Have an interesting LGBTQ+ story to share? We might feature U! Email us at lgbtq@strawhutmedia.com. *This podcast is not affiliated with Pride Media. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Straw hut, media Andreds. Hernandez immigrated with his mother from Columbia to Michigan when he was just eight years old. Nine years later, in two thousand and five, seventeen year old andres enlisted in the military. Don't ask, don't tell was the law of the land and the US was at war in the Middle East. George W Bush was serving his second term as president. Throughout his twelve years of active duty, Andres built his military career as a combat engineer. His job was to find improvised explosive devices, also known as IED's, in Afghanistan and disarmament, keeping both soldiers and civilians safe. But on tour he couldn't be open about being gay. At home, people didn't understand what it was like to be at war. So what was it like to occupy that space and what comes next? I'M LEA by chambers and this is pride. My name is and there as Hernandez, and I was in the military for about twelve years. Currently consultant. Live here in Los Angeles, California, Andres first joined the national guard at seventeen, mostly, he said, just to get away from home, just to pay for my school. Have kind of my own life and that was the quickest way I could think of doing it. I grew up in a very consertive household, so that was also kind of one of the more likely options that are kind of presented at the time. So when I joined, you know, I had this image in my head of what the military would be like, where I would go explore the world and actually, you know, I had some patriotism. I was born in Columbia and immigrated to the US when I was eight years old, and so were there was something in there about giving back to my country, you know, and I thought I would be doing these amazing things and I said, well, let me start with the National Guard, which is kind of a part time reserve status, and then see where I want to take this on the this went off to boot camp and like immediately I was like this is awesome. People are doing so many like heroic, amazing things, and I like one of my first phone calls I got to make home, I was like mom, I think I'm going to volunteer to go to Iraq, and she's like started crying. She's like don't do that, just stick to your plan, your plan with the leg you know, finished do school first and then figure out how much you like the military and then go from there. So he stuck with the plan. He stayed part time through college and then joined ROTC. In case you're wondering, ROTC stands for reserve officers training core. ROTC for you know, if you don't know what it is, it's the program that trying to transform, you know, civilian into a military officer. So it like combines like the physical part of it with like army history or, you know, just, I guess, General Military History or tactics and strategy. So I joined in two thousand and five, became an officer in two thousand and ten and then don't as, don't tell was repealed and two thousand and eleven or two thousand and twelve, and then pretty much made in my way up through first of ten and then captain. A career in the military can take a lot of different shapes. There are five branches of the US military, the army, the Marine Corps, the Navy, the Air Force and the Coast Guard. Within those five branches there are millions of jobs. Some positions deploy and see combat, some...

...don't. When I commissioned military I went into engineering combat engineering, which you know first is just, you know, building and bridges and structure. It also includes explosive so I thought I wanted to go into construction side of it. My degree is in construction management, so I thought I want to do that and then, you know, this is, I guess, kind of the theme you'll notice about my military career. As I say, I want to go do like the Tamer thing and then I end up like jumping head first into the other. So I ended up really liking combat engineering, which is explosives, and ended up leading a unit, so a platoon, in two thousand and twelve and the southern region, I've Afghanistan, looking for bombs and IDs on the road and pretty much blowing them up so that like fall on forces could come behind and drive safely, or that, you know, kids wouldn't find them and get affected by the blast or you know, etc. So just take them off the battlefield. So that was my job there. So I did that for a year. It was pretty hard year and dres experience things that made it hard for him to relate to the people he loved back home. I mean, I vividly remember this experience on my birthday where the you know, there were two vehicles that crashed in the middle of the road. I mean the road system in Afghanistan is non existent, to say to put it nicely. And like, you know, there's a small little truck with a bunch of kids in the back and like it rolled over. So there's like hurt kids that I had to go and like, you know, make a decision of like should be continue our mission to like go clear bombs off the road? Is it going to delay somebody schedule, or do we help literally dying kids right now? And so we're like yeah, I know everyone's like in agreement. Immediately, let's help these kids. So we had a really tough time just dealing with the politics of like we can't bring civilian like Afghan civilians and tour base and all this stuff. So, you know, I it was a very tough day for me and happened to be my birthday, so it was memorable because of I was already, you know, kind of thinking about my experience that day and I just put it all in an email that night and like pressend and like zero context right like in my mind it was just like another day at work and I made a tough decision that day. It was a tough day at work, but it was just another day at work in retrospect. Andres realized there was a space between life on tour and life at home and he hadn't figured out how the two connected yet. You know, he's at work, you know, doing creative like, you know, add magazine type of work, and receives an email like his one email a week from his boyfriend as deployed, and it's all about like there's dying kids right. So that that's immediately very upsetting. Andres let a larger company that did combat engineering for another three years and then I felt like I had enough. I just wanted to have some of my weekends back and travel a little more and not kind of be so tied to the military. So I decided to leave two thousand and eighteen, so I guess last year. But you know, the initial kind of pop process was after twelve years, you know, I would get out and, you know, maybe see what it was like and see if I enjoyed not being in the military and then, you know, if I felt like, oh I there's more work that I need to do, I'd go back in and finish eight years and then get retirement out of it. But right now I feel like I'm not going back, this is great and enjoy my time off surfing. Yeah, surfing, going around the world, traveling. Yeah, that...

...is a huge jump from being like I'm going to be safe and just going to build buildings. Yeah, like, no, I'm gonna go find all the explosives on the road and blow them out. Yeah, but yeah, I mean it's funny because I think there's something about the military and doctor nationization process that makes you want to be like as just put yourself out there as much as possible, which, you know, I guess looking back on it, you know a little more soberly, you know, a little more reflective. It's just what being young is, right, like you go and you think, I'll just test it out, and then something exciting comes alonger like yeah, I want to do the exciting thing. I I didn't join the military to like sit behind desk, right. So, yeah, let's go blow up pomps, you know. So you kind of get accustomed to like seeking that out lot and it's kind of hard to stop and I think that's why people make a career out of it, because it's yeah, let's let's go do this more exciting thing and it just never friends. I think military service is a mixed bag for a lot of people. You know, I think everyone that asks the question initially kind of expects a very stock response from service members. But it depends on what you did. Right. Some people join the military come out with a lot of shame and they don't feel that way. They don't feel like their work was important or they feel like they actually hurt society in some way. Right. Other people feel that, you know, that there the US is right to do x, Y and Z in the world and they've feel very strongly about it and you know, they just feel like they have to keep spousing some ideas and, you know, kind of do military jacent things for the rest of their life. So it's a mixed bag. Some people honestly go to combat zones and never see any combat right. That their finance people and so their experience is very different than somebody does an infantry person or combat engineer one a bomb. So for me I felt grateful's right word, but very fortunate that what I did, I feel like, was dangerous but also held people, and so I felt like I have these school action story but I you know, I am grateful to say like I didn't go out there to hurt anybody, right, but that my my that story could been very different. Right even before Andres officially finished his commitment to the military, there were periods of time when he came home from active duty and went back into the reserves. When he returned, he struggled to figure out how to get back to regular civilian life. When I got background Afghanistan, you know, and I went back into like a reserve status, so I would go to training one week in a month and then two weeks during the summer, or two to three weeks during the summer straight, and then, you know, my regular civilian career were continues. So I worked for a construction company during prokermit and I remember getting there and thinking that nothing would ever be as important as what I was doing in Afghanistan. You know, like taking a bomb off road and saving somebody's life that would have ran over. It is not going to measure up to like buying steal on a construction project. And so I would go on these like I would have like little panic attacks of like I this is the rest of my life and it seems so not meaningful and I would like leave work and go on these walks and just think about like what am I doing with my life? Why am I doing this, you know, and later come to find out that's exactly a postraumatic stresses is that feeling? And you know, so, you know, would get prescribed like ridling so I could focus on work, because otherwise I would just think about how meaningless it was, and then Zan x at night so I could like calm down and go to bed. So, I mean, luckily I was treated and like I knew to kind of...

...go to the VA and like I knew what the signs were. I knew that that wasn't normal and so, you know, with a treated you kind of get through that pretty quickly. For me it was about sixty eight months and then now I'm like Oh yeah, now I go to work and I'm like this is the most important thing in the world. You know, I get stressed about work just like anybody else. Yeah, so, yeah, it was very, very stressful kind of you know, looking for bombs and then reintegrating. When I first got to Afghanistan, we do this process called like right seat Lepsy, where you shadow the unit that you're taking over right because there's already somebody. They're doing the job you're about to do. So you shadow them for a week and then you take over and they stay along just to make sure that you're running things as they would have or they're giving you advice on different areas or different routes they have to clear. So my first day at when I took over, my vehicle got blown up and, you know, like I'd purty much had to act on the spot. Like, you know, I'd only been in country for about a week and while I was very stressful in the moment, and you know, your adrenaline kicks in and kind of takes care of the stress, the reason I start this story with that moment is because the stress came about a year later, right. So, when I got home and it was hard integrating back into like a civilian workplace. You know, I didn't really know how to talk to my boyfriend at the time anymore. We were both very cold with each other. You know, I lived in New York City and I felt like I didn't really have any friends that understood me. I had a pretty much acknowledge that there was a problem. Go to like the VA and check myself in and say hey, I think I need like mental health counseling or something to get me through like what I'm feeling. I can't even describe it right. So, like, you know, in one hand you have something that happens in a combat zone. It's very stressful and I think everyone expects me to say that's the most stressful thing, but that's what you're training is for that. Like I knew how to handle it in the moment and maybe I made some bad decisions in that moment, but there was a unit effort and everybody kind I had everyone's back and you kind of go through the emotions. What I wasn't prepared for is, like, after having gone through so much of that that it changes you, is how to become myself again on the other side of it, especially because, you know, because of being deployed and kind of segregating my personal life or my military life, you know, I had a lot of issues where I just didn't share a lot the moment and it was I think that was the most stressful, is coming back and navigating how to have a social life again, how to be functioning at work again. All those things were really hard. Just how to be a civilian, how to be a person really, like, you know, because part of it it was just like how to show intimacy with your boyfriend, right, how to not just get out of bed and like move on with your life instead like sit there and cuddle or, you know, how to stay at your desk and keep doing your job when you're just like this doesn't matter, just doesn't matter, just doesn't matter. Right, and like I feel that today. But that's something else, right. That's just what we all go through, which is just, you know, points in our career that we're like, oh, yeah, like why am I doing this? But no,...

...this was serious, like why am I doing this? Like this does not matter, you know. And so, I mean that's why veteran suicide rate is extremely high, because when they get home they do not know how to carry on right and they feel like nobody understands them, there's nobody out there, and so, you know, I think identifying that early on and kind of seeking help was very hard, but it was the best thing I could have done for myself. Like I mean, I put a lot of emphasis and into feeling better. Like, you know, I had a counselor that would recommend books, and I would read them in like a book and I'm sorry, I would read them in a week just trying to make sure that I got better. But not everyone kind of has that understanding of what it is that they're going through. Do you still have those moments or are they gone? Um, no, I'd generally say they're gone. I think I still have those moments in the same way, like anybody has those moments right in the same way that we all go through a normal ups and downs of life. But I I really don't think that any of them anymore are military related. And it's funny. So a few years after I got back from my deployment, I was going through some relationship stuff with a boyfriend of mine at the time and he brought it up. He's like, are you going through post Raumatic stress? And you know, I couldn't tell the difference. What was relationship stress or if it was really me still going through post raumatic stress. And so I don't want to take any chances. So I went and got help again and about five visits and the counselor I was seeing the time was like, you don't have anything. This is you're actually very well adjusted. This is either this person gaslighting you or you know, you're just going through normal relationship drama and you seem to be taking care of just fine. So it was like this moment of like okay, it was a good check in of like, you know, I don't. I want to make sure like I don't have any mental health issues and you know, somebody telling me no, you're just that's what relationships are, their work and you know, everyone goes a little crazy when they're going through something tough in a relationship. So I'm yeah, I'm pretty confident that you know, and I think because I can't speak to it now that I it's I don't have anything kind of lingering and most post dramatic stress is very treatable and if treated immediately after your stressful experience can be gone like forever. So, you know, I think it's something that is just important to put out there. So whether it's military service or any other stressful event, you know, seeking help can actually just solve it, like it's not something that people have to carry on and and live with four years and years. A recent report from the Department of Veterans Affairs showed that at least Sixtyzero US veterans died by suicide between two thousand and eight and two thousand and seventeen, and the suicide rate for veterans in two thousand and seventeen was one point five times the rate for non veteran adults. After talking to Andres I wanted to know what advice he would give, not just to a queer person coming out of the military, but anyone making the transition from being a soldier to being a civilian. My advice for people that either or trying to come out or have a, you know, a kind of a career situation is to actually just bring people on board, you know, like when you're on a ship by yourself out there, when you're kind of build the walls that I did put at the time, you're...

...just making it harder, right, like bring as many people on board. They're going to help you. You have a point of reference. Don't be offered. Ask for help. I mean, I know you know the Internet's a great resource. I mean, if you're coming out, there's hot lines out there, right, there's things you can read about, there's coming out stories. If you're LGBT in the military, there's organization's like Modern Military Association of America that you know you can reach out to. There's a lot of resources and I just say tell people to don't be afraid to use them. That's what they're for it. It's usually when people don't seek help or don't or try to go at it themselves where I think people stumble. When we come back, we'll hear about Andres experience serving in the military during the don't ask, don't tell era and how it changed after it was repealed. Plus undress opens up about coming out to his unit. The US military didn't officially restrict LGBTQ service members from serving until the mid twentieth century, but as far back as the revolutionary war, being caught engaging in homosexual acts could result in being discharged or court martialed. Then, in the years leading up to World War II, for the first time, military regulations officially cited homosexuality as a reason to bar someone from military service. Still, hundreds of thousands of queer Americans serve their country and kept their sexual identity secret. If they were outed, they would be discharged, lose their benefits or worse. Even through the gay rights movement of the S S, the band remained intact and in nineteen eighty one, the Department of Defense reaffirmed it and went on to discharge almost seventeen thousand men and women under the homosexual category. Then, during Bill Clinton's presidential campaign in Nineteen Ninety two, he promised to end the ban on gay people serving in the military. The following year he introduced don't ask, don't tell, and the year after that it went into effect. You know, the Clinton administration today gets the low flak for it, for passing it, but essentially it was a compromise at the time that said will you can serve and be gay, so you don't have to deal with kind of being accused and then just getting out, but if you're serving, you can't tell anybody, but we also won't ask. Even after Barack Obama repealed don't ask don't tell in two thousand and eleven, coming out as a queer service member was not so easy. Yeah, I couldn't tell anybody in my unit that I was gay. I mean, I guess I could have, but I didn't choose to share that. I think it would have muddied a lot of stuff up and I think of my job was so stressful right like literally looking for bombs, like my vehicle got hit with an ID in my first week in Afghanistan, and so I didn't want to have to think about something else. I didn't want to have to think about how people are going to react once they find out I'm gay, because that's extra stress I didn't need at the moment. It was more like I just want to go to work and be sharp and, you know, hope that, you know, when it hits the fan like that, I can react in a way that nobody dies. Like that's that was that was the mindset. And so, you know, telling somebody I had a boyfriend back home was just not an option for me at the moment. And you know, I think that's different for a lot of people. Some people really to get through that hard time need that support system, and I would say that's true for me today. Like I would want them to know and know that there's somebody back home, but in the moment my decision was it's just easier to leave, to block that out.

And you know, I think my year in Afghanistan was a lot like when I was coming out, which was I just did a mental block right. So when I was coming out, like I would go watch gay porn right, and then I would go back into society and lie to myself and say I'm probably just going through some stuff, I'm straight, and I would just block that like I didn't. You know, a lot of people describe like coming out as such an internal struggle. For me, it wasn't, because I just lied to myself. It was just such a block, mental block that I like a wall I built around this thing called being gay. And you know, I think my deployment to Afghanistan was the same way. It was just like this wall I built around my deployment. Setting that to no other part of my life is going to get into looking back in it now. That's why I try to keep myself involved some on the advisory board for modern military, which is kind of bridging the military and lgbt communities together, because, you know, if you're lgbteen the military, like you can't get out of either. Right, like you're gay, you have to make sure the community accepts you your you might have kids that are going to schools and they could get being bullied. Right, if you're trans, there's you know, trump has a ban against trans people serving currently. So this organization goes out and tries to fight all those issues, tries to legally fight administration on the Trans Band, tries to create communities that are more inclusive towards the kids of lgbt parents or lgbt kids in military communities. So I felt like that was very important just because my experience specifically being deployed in having, you know, a loved one back home that couldn't be as involved. So I mean, there's a lot of work to do, but I'm grateful of how far I think they'll in the last like ten years we've come. I mean ten years ago, I can tell I I was I could get blackmailed right if somebody found out I was gay. I would lose everything in the you know that I work for in the military. You know now at least. Yes, there are issues, there their challenges but like, there are some legal protections, even though don't ask, don't tell. Ended in two thousand and eleven. It brought up a lot of other complications. Heterosexual spouses of service members are entitled to certain legal protections. They can visit their spouse in the hospital, they are informed about important things while their spouse is deployed and they can be granted power of a Parney in case of a tragedy. So even though a service member could be openly queer, their partner still likely wouldn't receive the same benefits as opposite gender spouses. So there's a lot of things that the military had to figure out in those years, and so the culture wasn't also caught up to date, right. So in two thousand and twelve, when I got deployed, even though I could be out the family, readingess groups that like helped those staying back weren't the most supportive at the time. They, you know, still had a lot of issues. So Luckily, I think a lot of that's come a long way and been a lot better. So what was your experience in the military like before it was repealed and then after? When I was in school, when I was in college, camera the exact year, I want to say it was like two thousand and seven, right. So the don't as UNTEL was the law and I was dating this guy. We, you know, had a break up. You...

...know, at the time I was also just coming out and trying to figure out who I was. So I probably didn't deal with the break up in the most mature way because I'm, you know, stupid eighteen year old and my ex at the time decided that, you know, he wants say in this relationship, and the way he was going to do it was to threaten to out me to the military if I didn't get back together right, or to threaten to pick me up at military events, you, you know, and tell me to get in the car right, or he'd cause a scene. So I felt like I was in this place of like, if I don't do what he's saying, like I'm going to lose my career in the military. Right. So, like I had a like call lawyers to try to figure out the situation. Luckily, it d escalated itself and I think, you know, he was also a dumb eighteen year old and just figure it out that, yeah, what I'm doing is stupid. Right now, let's stop doing that. Right. But that could have gotten a lot worse, right, and I don't know what protections I would have had. You know, it would have been that the issues out there and I would have been separated from the military and that would have been the end and this podcast would have never happened, right, versus, you know, after don't ask him tell was repealed. I think it was more about is the unit that I'm a part of going to be accepting? And even if they're not, I still have some protections, right. They can't, you know, put me in a different position because I'm gay, because I can fight that, you know, go to an IG and fight that right. And so wasn't so much that I'm going to lose my career, it was well, I have will I be accepted in this community right? And so towards the last few years, you know, like twenty fourteen to when I left in two thousand and eighteen, you know, I'd been to combat, I was a company commander and I felt like I had a lot of respect, and so the issue was more about how are they going to react once I introduced them to somebody? That moment came in two thousand and sixteen when Andres introduced his boyfriend Max to his army unit. Is when I got promoted to captain. He came to the ceremony and pinned on my captain rank and it was great. I mean everyone was so nice to him. You know people are extremely conservative that I'd heard him say just how awful anything progressive is. Right, like they just the last people I would ever expect, expect to embrace somebody that's LGBT. There were so nice to Max. They would ask about them right like it was just a total reversal of like. So my expectations were greatly exceeded, both by my unit and then just like, you know, looking back on it, I don't know if it was my fears or if everything did come such a long way. So I think it was a little both, like, you know, I was probably more afraid than I should have been at the time, but also I think these people really came around and I think part of it is, you know, seeing somebody that had done the thing for your had thought the same battles and, you know, I think dass themselves like I can't treat this guy any differently, like he actually he's one of us, right, and so I think it actually helped them come along to being more accepting. So it was great, I mean, but before, don't ask until, I would have never seen that. You know, I couldn't have imagined introducing a boyfriend to my unit. What made you decide, like I'm going to do this, I'm just going to introduce. I'm like, was there a moment I had boyfriend's prior to Max,...

...while I was in the military. You know, I told him, Hey, these are probably two lives that need to be kept separate. Right, like I'm going to be at home with you and we can start a family and then I go to my military thing and I don't know how that's gonna work out, and so for now let's not mixed it to right. And a lot of times they weren't, you know, very they didn't receive that very well, but they accepted it because they loved me and because, you know, the relationships are early and we wanted to see what would happen. Max is very like at going and let he's a go getter, like you know. He goes after what he wants and you know, at the moment he said no, this is not acceptable, this is your life. I want to be involved in all of it. You know, don't Essen tells not an issue. So this is your BS. This isn't you know a law anymore, this is you not trusting that this is going to work out. And he was right. Like I just had to make the jump and just trust that he, you know, is extremely charming and we'll will them all over, and that's exactly what happened right. So, you know, I remember being so nervous, and part of it's because I was running a unit and so like my boss was coming and it was a ceremony for me to get promoted. So it was also a big moment for me. So I wanted everything to like go so smoothly and I was so nervous that I just kept messing everything up, like I remember like giving people wrong times to be places and, you know, I was just a mess. And then, you know, introducing you know, just I wouldn't say my boyfriend. I'm like, Oh, this is Max. It was just funny, you know. And I remember getting pinned and promoted and that ceremony and wherever met Max and giving a speech, and I don't know what I said, like might I have a mental block of anything I said, and I think I just rambled. And then I actro Max being like what was that? Like he's like, this is my first time seeing you in like a military format and giving like a military speech, and I thought I'd be more cohesive than that, and I just from being like yeah, I don't know what happened to me either, like I was so nervous. You know, luckily he's seen me interact and military settings after that and gains a little more confidence. But it was great. I mean, looking back on it, it's a great Serb but that night I was a nervous treck. Before the pinning ceremony, his military colleagues had a chance to get accustomed to Andres and Max as a couple. So he did a youtube video called meet my boyfriend about three months prior where he introduces me and says he's never come out to anybody in the military. I believe it's still up and so I just described that. I you know, I'm a consultant in New York, but I also I'm a reservist in the military and I've never told anybody in the military that I'm gay and I guess with this video it's out there. So whoever finds it is gonna know right and I don't know how, but a month later I was getting text messages for my soldiers being like hey, that video is going around or unit. Everyone's watching it. Just want to know we got your back. And if you know, there were kind of lower and listed younger people. So like the younger people that I oversee, like I'm their boss right. So like of course they're going to be like Hey, I'm supportive, you know, and they're younger, so it's a little easier when somebody's like twenty years old and you know, I'm in my late s right, and today it's they're probably pretty gay friendly. I was more awared about my superiors, and so that was the first time like my superiors knew and...

I made it very like I put a face to it. Right, even though it's slow, the military is making progress towards minimizing discrimination against some queer service members. There was progress made for Trans people when Obama ended the ban on transgender people in the military in two thousand and sixteen. However, trump's march two thousand and eighteen memorandum set the LGBTQ plus community back again. Trans Service members definitely have a tougher, I think, road ahead than what gay service members had in some respects. You know, the current administration has just a total block of Trans Service and I think it's important to note that Trans people have always served in the military right and so it's not whether they can do their job or they can't, it's whether they can be allowed to continue doing the job so I personally don't know anybody that it's in like the units that I've served. So I can't speak on like a personal kind of military relationship level, but I've met a lot of people through different organizations that have either served or are trying to serve that are getting kicked out because of the current policies in place right now. You know, and it's simple, like if you can do the job, if you want to do the job, you should be allowed to do the job right, like it shouldn't be based on anything else. Shouldn't be based on gender or shouldn't be based on sexuality right or anything else. Today Andres lives in Los Angeles working as a consultant and staying involved in groups that help bridge the gap between the LGBTQ plus community and the military. So where can pride listeners connect with you? Pride listeners can connect with me on instagram or twitter. On instagram I'm on the desk coming low and then three underscores, and then on twitter it's on the this s three underscores, then Camillo. Perfect. Thanks for listening. Pride is a production of Straw hut media. If you like the show, leave us a rating and a review on Apple, podcast, spotify or wherever you're tuning in from. Share us with your friends, subscribe and follow us on Instagram, facebook and twitter at pride. Yep, it's at pride. That's simple. You can follow me at Le by chambers. Pride is produced by Levi Chambers, Maggie Bowls and Ryan Tillotson, edited by Sebastian Alcala. In just those years of pulling bombs off roads like you've already done so much. That me Ryan, we will never accomplish those types of things. No offense, Ryan,.

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